In this episode, Michelle Hill, an expert in deceptive relationships and author of “The Heart Swindler“, shares her insights. She defines “future fakers” in deceptive relationships and highlights warning signs to watch out for. Michelle emphasizes the importance of self-care, seeking support, and asking pointed questions when dealing with deceptive relationships.
https://winningproof.com/
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Transcript
Hi and welcome to the You World Order Showcase podcast. Today we are joined by Michelle Hill, who coaches women through deceptive relationships. She's the author of the heart, swindler and a book and publishing consultant. Welcome to the show, Michelle. I am so excited to chat with you about this really important topic.
Today about overcoming or getting out of disentangling yourself from.
Deceptive relationships, but really relationships that aren't working anymore.
Yes, and thank you so much for having me, Jill. I'm so excited to be here, but there's so much to say and talk about when it comes to this, because I think women feel so trapped in this area. So ask away and we'll have a, you know, we'll talk about the helping women.
So tell me your story. What inspired you to write?
The book and.
Yeah. How did? How did you?
Get to this point.
There is strength and vulnerability and I have quoted that more and more lately and what led me to write it was I've been the and I don't like to use the word victim. I like to use the word either target or survivor really.
And I've been the survivor of two.
I would say romance scams, one for money. When I was first divorced way back that happened in 2000, early 2000s, second time. Recently January of this year in person at the gym. So after that gym experience and that was with the future.
Baker and we can talk about that because not a lot of people have heard that term, and that's what prompted me when I realized that's what it was. I was just. I've got to sound the warning alarm for other women so they can be aware of the signs.
To look for.
Because if you're looking for, you know, love and attention and affection, and which I think most of us are, then they see use from a mile away, they can spot us from a mile away. And that's what prompted me to write this book was because I just want to sound the warning alarm and help women through.
If they've experienced that, you know, to help walk them through the experience.
So what is a future faker? What?
How do you define that?
I had to do.
Some research because I did not know what had happened.
To me I'm thinking.
You know what happened the first one way back was for money. This one was for emotional manipulation and a future. Faker is someone who builds the whole relationship based on the future. And I'll give you some examples. I'm going to surprise you and we're going to go travel here and we're going to go here and there.
It's going to be a surprise. Nothing we're going to have. We need to have this conversation. But that's a future conversation.
We're going to Europe on this fabulous vacation.
But it's in the future, the whole thing is based in illusion based on the future of what's going to be. And so you're kind of biting at the carrot, but they set up their scenario so beautifully with the love bombing. You don't know what's happening to you. So that's a future Faker, as opposed to a romance scammer.
Who is after most of the time after money?
That's interesting. I have a particular disdain for people that tell me the things that they're going to do, just like I don't care what you say. Just either do it or don't do it. But don't tell me about it and.
So I can see how you could get sucked in, cause people like that they.
When you first meet them, they.
Seem genuine and like.
That's it could happen.
But there's just so many people that are just like they want to tell you all about the things that they're going.
To do and the.
More grandiose The thing is, the more like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And the thing is, I have a really good longtime friend who I'm sharing what's happening to me earlier this year, and he's saying real.
Then don't tell you they're going to do something. They just do it. So first tip off is that planning a future scenario and acting like it's real, but again, they don't do that on the first encounter they set up.
They're love bombing first. They you think you have died and gone to heaven with how they're showering you with niceties.
Yeah, yeah, they can. It's easy to get sucked in, especially if you're lonely, you know, and we all get lonely at times. And if you're on your own, it's easy to feel like.
You. You.
Would like somebody to share fun times with and do things with, but it's really.
Difficult to find quality people.
Like on the spur of the moment.
It sure is, and people think that most of the scammers are online, but they're not. They're in person. They're skulking in gyms. They're skulking everywhere, and they know exactly what they're looking for.
And the big thing is that most of the time we possess qualities that they're lacking or will never have, like the kindness they're nurturing the, the, the attentiveness we have, all those and somehow.
They sensed that because I was going around about my business at the gym, I've been just working out. I love the gym, I'm there and I would just. I wasn't looking for anybody. I'm just there, but apparently he had been watching me, watching my moves, watching so they can tell.
Who their next?
Target is going to be somehow I didn't think I was a target, but.
I was.
What are some of the things that you would say?
To women to watch out for in terms of how they're behaving to keep themselves from appearing, to be a target.
Yes, I don't know if you can appear not to be a target, but some things to watch out for are if they're way complementary too fast. If they are, if they're if the guy is just so complimentary. And I remember meeting this person.
Our first encounter second encounter after the gym and like he just went bonkers the whole time. It was almost like, OK enough, but it's.
Like, oh, you look so beautiful.
Ohh you look and.
You just went on and on and.
On and on, and a woman who I mean and doesn't like draw me in, but a woman who just is craving.
That will just be. It's like a vacuum, you know? So that's one thing to look for is just excessive love bombing. Another thing to look out for, I would say, is if they say.
They established their scenario, they established their position and then within a month they say.
I love you.
Way red flag.
Nobody can love you in a month. They don't.
Even know you?
Another one is divide and conquer. They will kind of put wedges verbal wedges.
Is emotional wedges between you and those that you love because they don't want you to be talking to them. They don't want you to be interacting because if you are somebody on your friends or family might say no. That that sounds like a scammer. They don't. They kind of want to divide you.
From that. So those are the top three that to watch out for.
Just excessive attention at 1st and I know when people are first in love, they do shower attention on each other. No problem with that, but it's excessive.
And So what do you do if you're?
Already involved in a relationship like that when like.
You went. You went too.
Far and you let them into your heart and now you're starting to realize. Oh, crap.
This was a mistake, a big mistake.
Yes, I think the first thing is that when I first started questioning it was you get to know at first they have a pattern, they will call you every night pretty much at the same time they have a life pattern that that they follow and that you follow. But if they break that pattern.
Hey, you didn't.
Called me last night. At the time you usually do and they will. They will turn it back on you. You they will gaslight you basically. And so I think when you're already when you're in it and you feel like, oh, I might love this person and you.
Don't know but.
I think it's just ask more questions, ask pointed questions if they invade the questions. If they dance around the questions or just don't answer, or if they turn them back on you.
Ding, Ding. It's a big warning sign.
Ask them another thing is to ask them to meet your friends, somebody who is not.
Genuine and doesn't really want to relationship with you. They want something from you. They will not want to meet your friends because then your friends again are going to ask you about hey, how's it going with Joe Blow? You know, so they don't want to meet your friends. They'll come up with excuses or they'll be busy or.
For whatever reason, so they don't, and they don't really want you to meet their friends because their friends most likely know who they are.
You know, so.
Divide and conquer.
Yeah. And just to I think another, if you're in it like when I was in it and my emotional manipulator person.
He used I.
Believe fully believe he used a fake cancer.
Diagnosis as his exit plan because he was, I think he had a trajectory.
I'm done two months.
This this one's done. I got her to say I love you. On to the next one and so.
And I and I when I was doing my research, I found that that is true. So many people use fake cancer diagnosis to just.
As our exit plan and that's when I started asking pointed questions and I started pushing a little bit more and then it's just like.
No responses then. Then you know that they know the gig is up. You know what's going on at this point. So I hope that answers your question.
Yeah. Wow.
What is the very first thing a woman can do after she realizes she's a survivor of a deceptive romance?
The first thing she should do is focus on herself, really. Do some healing, do some journaling, and what she does with that is that treat herself like she would treat her best friend that just went through it because.
Often we would be compassionate and loving and kind and nurturing to our best friend. We would come alongside them, but we often don't do that on our own to ourselves. So treat yourself as if you're your best friend. Go get a massage journal about your feelings every single day or make.
Voice notes. If you're not a writer, go buy your favorite dessert or meal or, you know, take yourself out to a nice dinner. Nurture yourself as if you are your you're dating yourself.
And that's the first thing. It's just that self, self love self-care is the best thing. I mean to add to that, the second thing would be talk to somebody.
About it, because you need somebody. I remember after the first one, I felt so stupid. I felt so vulnerable. I felt so disappointed, thinking it was the real thing. And it just the money. The $2500 was, you know, that was a big deal. I had to pay that back. But it was the illusion of thinking.
Somebody saying that they loved you when it really was, it was deception and so.
I would say to that woman, get help, find somebody to walk with you through that because it is a heartbreak. It doesn't mean it's any less because it was pretend.
Yeah, and giving yourself the grace.
To be able to.
Acknowledged that it was a mistake. It was just something that happened and.
It's not your.
Fault. Sometimes we just feel like, oh, God, we're so stupid. How could I have fallen for that? And if it's happened before and we often fall into patterns with people that we date and.
You know it's.
It's it really is not your fault. There is a reason for it, and if you can seek help, you can often find what the root cause is, and then you can break that pattern. You can realize why it is that you're attracted to these kinds of people so that you don't get there again. And if you it's.
Like the whole learning your lesson, if you don't learn it the first time, you'll see it again. Keep getting it until you pass.
Yeah. Ohh, you're so right. You know, you're so right about that because there is. It's not our fault. We it, you know, and I stayed in the book and even I think in the introduction about Bernie Madoff, you know he scammed thousands of brilliant wealthy people. So how did those people.
So probably duped probably. How could I fall in for that same thing? It's the same thing. So we have to give ourselves grace. And yes, you do feel stupid. But if you learn the lessons, if you learn the warning signs.
When that next.
Person because they're attracted to our kind of nurturing personalities.
They you'll be able to like, wait a minute. You can ask those questions you I asked at the end at the beginning, pointed. Don't be embarrassed about asking them pointed questions, because if they're not real.
You can hear between the lines the evasion.
The all that.
To other relationship coaches over the course of doing this podcast because I get to talk to so many wonderful people, they're doing amazing things. And one of the things that they talked about is asking the hard questions up front. Like you're saying, you know, do you, for younger people, you know, where do you see this?
Relationship going do you want a family? Do you want me to stay home and raise the kids?
Do you are?
You wanting a woman who's going to support you?
You know what?
What are the dynamics of the relationship you're looking for? And if they're not looking for the kind of relationship that you want to have?
You know.
Early is better ditching them because your person is out there or your people are out there. I think there's more than one person for any person out there like.
Soul mates and stuff, but soul mates.
Are just like.
Maybe your soul mates not even on the planet right now.
Yeah. Find somebody you like and you have fun with. And who wants the same things that.
You want and.
Make a relationship.
Yes, it's common. You know, finding the commonalities and even the and not even romance scams, not even that I have.
A young friend.
Who was just getting out of a marriage because?
He, her husband, had all kinds of addictions. No clue.
You talked about all.
That relate kids and we want the same.
Things all those.
Pieces were there, but just after two years of.
Marriage. It's like boom.
You know, so that's relationship deception too, not malicious like these scammers and future fakers do, but it's still relationship.
Exception and you still have to heal and move on.
Yeah, you do. And just staying in a bad relationship for the kids sake. You know, I personally experience with some of this and it doesn't do anybody any good if your relationship is broken beyond repair. If you've grown to a point where you just.
You're not on the same path anymore.
Move on. It's better for everyone and then you know, figure out how you're going to take care of the kids and whatever you do, don't bash that other person. Get out of the relationship before the bashing starts because your kids are part of both of you. And whenever you start, like, slamming on one parent over the other.
It just makes the kid feel like, you know, they don't like this part of me. And that's just not fair to the kids. But I don't think it does them any good to be in a relationship with somebody that you're.
You're just it. It's a bad relationship, but it manipulation happens in in bad relationships and it it's both ways. You know, both people.
Yeah, you're done. You know, if both people are done, you know what's better. Keeping it together for the kids. I mean, I did that. I was married 23 years, so I did that. I wanted to leave so many times, but I stayed because of the kids and.
What's better to do that so you have this intact, dysfunctional family, or you show your kids what strength you have inside of you, and that you made a really, really hard decision for your better, good and for theirs. And that to me.
That is the sounder decision. Rather than putting kids like you said, putting kids through that, because then that's their model for how a relationship should be, how a marriage should be, and.
That's no good because they're going to either repeat it or they're.
Never going to get married.
Yeah, I.
I have to say my two older kids that were a product of the divorce.
Have and. They're and they're adults. They're in their 40s now.
They both of them have been married to their spouses for like 10 and 15 years. They have kids, they have businesses, they are doing amazing and.
They have.
They looked at what happened between their dad and I and they recognized and it and they.
They interact with us in a way that they recognize that.
Yeah, that wasn't working.
But we're I'm still friends with their dad to this.
Day and I'm.
Today's my anniversary. We're 28 years married, but my current husband and my ex-husband get along great. We when we go to California, we all get together and do stuff and it's like.
It's just an extended family. There's lots of Papas and nanas out there.
And there's some more people you.
Know that that is not my scenario.
But I know a.
Lot of cases that that works and.
I think the kids.
Just benefit from all that love.
When everybody has different styles of loving their kids and everybody has different methods.
But you're all.
I think it's an advantage to the kids.
To have the extra people that you can all get along because that's not the case all the time, maybe even most of the time. So I think it's an advantage for the kids to see, oh, oh, this is a healthy relationship. And then obviously your kids have patterned that they have him on. So that's.
Yeah, it's really good. I'm. I'm, I'm.
Actually really proud of them. I have 5 kids. I'm proud of them all. But this there's other relationships in there where they like my youngest. She's been in a relationship for a couple of years and she's come to realize that, you know, though she loves this young man.
He doesn't want to live with him anymore. He's he.
He's not the person that.
She could see herself having a long term relationship with and so she moved out, which I thought was, you know, pretty amazing considering how young she is. Usually when you're that young and you bumped on to somebody, it's like I'm just going to hang on with both hands and.
Take the ride for whatever it's taking me so.
Right.
Yeah. And then.
We should.
Goes by 25 years, goes by because you're trying to appease everybody but yourself, and it's such a life of regret because you're trying to work. You're trying to make it work, you're trying, but you are the only one that's trying.
Yeah. And when you put yourself last, it really doesn't benefit anybody else because you're, like, hiding all of the gifts that you already have just to appease people. And it's more about people pleasing and trying to be liked and you're never going to be liked in that situation because not everyone is always going to like you.
You just have.
To step out and be who you are and if they like you, great, and if not, they're not your people. It's OK.
Yeah, that's what a mantra that I've that I've kind of adapted as I've gotten older, it's OK. It's OK, you know, and I sometimes I have to repeat that to myself because.
It's just, it's OK, you know, and you don't want to be around people and one.
Of my favorite quotes.
Is don't and it's a well versed quote and I always get the beginning wrong, but don't spend time with people who tolerate you. Instead, spend time with people who celebrate you, and that's who I want to surround myself with. That's who. When I feel the fullest is when I'm surrounded by people who celebrate.
Who? See who I am and see my flaws and see my good points and love me anyway. What a fulfilling thing that is, you know.
I was talking to somebody. Who?
Just the other day, she's a self acknowledged people pleaser and she said one of the things that she started doing was instead of going into a party and hoping that everybody liked her or into an event, she went into the event thinking.
I wonder who I'm going to like.
Just that shift is, like, so powerful.
Very powerful, yes. And I have some events over the next few days and I am going to keep that right here because that's true. You know, you want to like, oh, I hope they accept.
Me. I hope they like me.
Who cares? You know you can bring your authentic self. You know you're going to be friendly. You know you're going to be kind and thoughtful and engage people in conversation. But.
Like the opposite. Well, I like them. Who will you.
Know who, who will.
I connect with. Who will I resonate with?
She had gone out to try to find friends because she'd never had a group of friends before. And she said she did actually end up finding a group of friends by having that approach, and they were interested in the things she was interested in. And she talked about the things that were interesting to her and waited to see if people would, you know.
If they, if they were interested in that too, because that's really where friendships develop or is on common ground, and if you're just trying to be polite.
And try and be interested in what people are talking about when you're not really.
It's kind of not genuine.
It totally is and you can be, you know, just proper just, you know, and think you're saying all the right words and it's being around other authentic people who don't have anything to prove.
Move. They're past all that and that can be any age. I think it's.
It's a little.
Bit older because we're past. I mean, it's just like, who cares when you get past this?
The Crohn's stage and you're like, bring it on, baby.
I earn these, you know, I earn these wrinkles. So they're badges of honor. But so. But I think it can transcend. But it's just, you know, and if conversation with somebody is lagging sometimes and you're at a table.
And you're, you know, you're kind.
Of forced to socialize in in a way, ask people.
Well, what their hobbies are? Well, what do you like to do?
You don't have to say another word. Just show an interest in other people you know and they and they, they walk away. Oh, she was really nice. All I did was ask about you and not fake.
Genuine. You're really caring about that. And if you can to add to the point, find out if you're going to be around certain people, find out about them, Google, find out where they're hanging out, and find that commonality as you said. And I think that just promotes wonderful conversation and.
Rich friendship sometimes.
Yeah, stop them a little on social media.
Sounds silly, but you can learn a lot about somebody just scrolling through their profile and seeing what they're up to, and it gives you an idea of, you know, questions to ask and.
Had had to just have a conversation with them.
That's it. But like you said, a real conversation. You know, an authentic conversation, not forced and.
You know, just not forced.
Just organic.
So you've written this book. It's called the heart swindler. And you're going to be doing coaching. And by the time this episode airs, you will have published the book, and it will be for sale on your website, which is.
Winningproof.com that's WINNING, like winning the game. Proof you're winning the game-winning proof.com and the subtitle. Just to add to that is reclaim your heart and stop falling for liars.
Losers and lunatics?
Oh, I like that I missed that part of it.
Yeah, yeah, that's a subtitle. And it's morphed over the last, you know, since I started working on it. It's a quick read, maybe 72 ish. You know, pages. I don't know how many pages it'll be after it's completely formatted, but it's a quick read. There's stories of surviving women that from narcissistic abusers.
Plenty of women in that arena that have been long term married to narcissistic abusers, future fakers, romance scammers, all that. So it includes a.
Kaleidoscope of different stories.
And it has heroic heartbeat lessons at the end of every story. So what the woman learned through their experience and my two stories are in there. But I don't use names. I just the type, the table of contents is more what it is, you know, future Maker, online romance, all that.
Sounds great. I'm going to have to pick up a copy of myself.
I just have had such a fun time compiling the stories and.
And it's just, it's been one of my the most fun books I have worked on because I have two children's books I have. How two book I wrote with a former NFL player and I have a another one called bathroom prayers inspiring thoughts while you're on the pot.
Like that.
So none of my books are connected to each other, but this one is special because I really lived it.
You know, I've lived through the experience. I've lived through healing your heart. I've lived through parents in, in the back in, in with the first one saying can she be that stupid? You know, that hurts, that hurts your heart. So I know what that's like. And I think that through the coaching I can't help other women.
Oh yeah.
Just heal and give themselves grace.
And you are going to be coaching and you're going to have coaching available for women who.
Are survivors of these.
Flawed relationships.
Absolutely, because I know how to walk through. I don't know. I can't say that I had someone like that. I don't think I did. I had mostly people pointing fingers at me.
And you know that that does not feel good at all. And like you, like you said previously, you have to learn the lessons you have to.
What's in you? There's patterns, there's lack. Maybe the childhood, because I know they say you marry your unfinished business. And so we're attracted to our unfinished business. So you know, we have to look at ourselves like that. But it's so hard to have people around you that are just.
Kind of kicking.
You while you're down and I don't.
Yeah. And that happens so often. I remember when I left my first husband and I had no one. I lost all my friends because they were really his friends and he was an alcoholic. So that's how we why we ended up getting divorced. But I had no friends.
I had a job.
That I was like in transition with.
And it was just I couldn't talk to my family because my family, my family, has its own problems. At the time, it was they. They never liked my first husband, so it was like, you know, you got what you deserve sort of thing. And it was just.
It was really hard.
And at that point, I promised myself that if my kids ever went through anything like that, they could always move home, or I would be kind to them, at least.
It just I.
Don't get it, but I do know.
That it's not.
Uncommon when people split up or a relationship breakup happens. They don't really know what to say, or they say all of the wrong things, or they're just hurtful and.
And that's not.
Helpful. You need somebody that can just like, hold your hand and.
Remind you that you this too will pass you know.
And that you're worthy of real love. And after going through a deceptive relationship, you don't think you're worthy of real love. You know, you think that this is all I can attract.
You know and.
So you're looking inward to say, oh, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me?
And it's really it's not, it's just we are worthy of real love, genuine love. Somebody that just comes alongside of us and just walks through life.
That's ohh there I.
Don't think there's anything better than that.
But it's.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's.
Really hurtful to go through that.
When people that are supposed to love you and protect you and surround you disappear or hammer in the nails, and sometimes it's perfect strangers, and I know even after my divorce, after 23 years, there was this little guy punching guy at the gym, you know?
And we've been, you know, you pass each other, blah blah blah. He perfect.
He was the one. Friends disappeared, everybody disappeared. But this stranger brought me Chinese food. We, you know, he let me cry on his shoulder. He just sole person walked through one of the most devastating and painful experiences of my life. So you women have to look for.
The most unlikely sources you know, just look for the most unlikely sources and sometimes those are the ones and I still after I've been divorced 23 years, I'm still talking about that little guy at the gym because that was so powerful and so significant to me. He was the only one there.
So final now kind of look for unlikely sources, but test them out to see if they're worthy of your story, because not everybody is worthy of your story.
And, as Marissa Pierce says, we're enough.
Write it on your mirror.
Any place that you're going to look just because you need that reminder.
You do.
You do. You are enough, just like you are just like you are not. You have to be anybody else. You have to try to be anybody else.
And you don't need anybody.
Else, to complete who you are, you.
Are enough by yourself, and if somebody comes along who's also enough by themselves, its really fun to spend time with them, but when you're having to be them and you
That's exhausting.
And it's exhausting. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I totally subscribe to that. And I love what you said. You are enough. And I like to tell women walk in your worth, you know, realize your worth and walk in your worth and.
If you do that.
It's not. It's not cockiness, it's confidence. It's an inner confidence.
And you know, I've. I've spent so many years thinking ohh if I think well of myself, I'm going to get arrogant, you know, I'm going to get conceited because that's what I was told growing up and so. But that's not there's a difference between quiet confidence walking in your worth, knowing you are enough.
It's OK to.
Say that to yourself and to live it and to embody it.
Just a little bit of arrogance isn't going to hurt you at all.
Own it, girl.
I have. I have a granddaughter. She's like 5 now and she is.
She's super.
Confident in everything she does, just like she auditions to be the flower girls at people's weddings.
Love her to death because she's just like.
She owns who she is. She's.
Larger than life, and if you don’t Like it.
Fine. You don't have to be my friend.
she says it. You go girl.
Yeah. And one of my 5 grandkids. But one of them is like that very, you know, I said, and I told my daughter, she's going to make all of.
Us rich someday.
Because that's I can see her just.
Doing her thing, you know? Yeah.
So but when they wrapped that at five years old and walking, they're worth at five years old.
Hey, yeah, I'm liking it.
It's like it's a whole different way of.
Being and I think it's really.
It it's so important.
Towards forming a world where people can just be who they are and.
Just being who you.
Are brings so much richness to the world that shrinking, shrinking back and holding yourself back.
Just springs misery.
It does, and I've read.
A lot about that lately about shrinking don't ever shrink back so the other person can appear bigger or larger or something like that. Don't ever shrink back because of making somebody else feel larger. And I'm just like, I've read that so many times and you know when.
You're trying to learn something.
It shows up.
Multiple times. And so that's like, no, there is no shrinking.
You don't like.
It Oh well.
Another friend said you need to shine your light.
So those who are meant to find you can find.
You and everybody else.
Can crash on the rocks.
Yeah, it's just that genuineness again, just being genuine, authentic.
If you like it, fine. If you don't find you know, not you. I think you said earlier as well. Not everybody's meant to be in your world.
You know.
And that's OK. There's lots of people out there you can't be.
Friends with everyone.
Nor would I want to. I like to keep my circle.
Kind of small.
Well, Michelle, this has been a really great conversation. I've enjoyed it very much. Is there one thing you'd like to leave the audience with today?
Oh, I think the one thing is that going back to the heart, swindler and the book and romantic relationship deception is that just look for the signs. Be where be hyper vigilant about the signs but protect yourself and protect your heart.
And I’ve heard that the whole time during this short 2.
Months with the.
Emotional manipulator is a future faker is that I heard that still small voice inside myself.
The whole time.
I'm guard your heart. Guard your heart, listen to your gut. If something doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. And that proved itself correct at the end of the two months. But.
Trust your gut. Trust that women's intuition that we have some of us have it keener than others, but I would just leave them. Trust your gut. If something doesn't feel right.
Listen to that voice. Listen to that voice.
Thank you.
So much for joining me, Michelle.
You have been a pleasure. It's been great to have a conversation. This is the topic energizes me to no end.