In this empowering episode, Melanie Childers, addresses the challenges of selling services, emphasizing the need to detach from outcomes and view rejection as a vital learning process. The discussion covers the evolution of online sales, the importance of diverse business skills, and highlights clear communication in effective sales conversations.
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Transcript
Hi and welcome to the You World Order Showcase podcast. Today we are joined by Melanie Childers, the feminist business coach. She teaches people how to master sales so it feels easy, collaborative and fun. Welcome to the show, Melanie. I'm really excited to chat with you about this important topic.
Oh, thank you. It's so nice to be here. It's such an honor.
I was telling you beforehand. I was really excited about this conversation because I have many decades of experience in sales and all kinds of things, and I was looking at your website and you're talking about selling T-shirts and cars and.
All the stuff.
So it's kind of different now though, isn't it?
It is. It is. I feel like the online world has definitely made sales a different game, and especially when you're.
When you're a coach or you're selling your services, it's very different from selling a product in like a retail store.
So what do?
You think the main differences are and then?
We'll talk about some of the similarities.
Yeah. What I have heard, so many people say, and from my own personal experience too, is that when you're selling, you know, a product or even as I used to work with progressive candidates who are running for office.
Even when you are making phone calls to fundraise like you're, you're making those sales for something that's outside of you.
And it's, you know, it's easy to separate from you versus when you're selling your services. You're essentially selling yourself and your brilliance and your expertise and your creativity and your genius and.
Especially if you are a.
Woman or one of us who has been socialized as a woman in a patriarchal society, we are taught that our value is less and that our thoughts and our opinions and our wisdom is worth less. And so it is much more challenging to sell our brilliance.
We have a lot of.
Conditioning to unravel in order to do that unapologetically on repeat, often in very bold ways, which is just what tends to come naturally for those socialized as men in our society. So it's much, much easier to sell something that's not quote UN quote yours.
It's more challenging to sell something that came from you.
I have. I have a thought on that and it I agree it is much more difficult. I think it stems from the fact that women generally feel like they're not enough.
They're not good enough. They lack in some way, and the idea of being told no.
Is really hard on many women. It's terrifying and rather than looking at.
We're fine.
It as like.
You know, you're just making an offer. You're just giving somebody an opportunity to.
Get your help.
And they have a right to say yes or no. Yes or no, are both perfectly fine answers. What you do not want, and most people seem to be attracted towards is the maybe is an empty promise. It will never ever get filled.
Yeah. What I find for so many is that.
No, it's terrifying and we don't want to hear it and so.
We will do anything.
To keep that from happening, which means that we don't sell and we don't show up often enough and we don't take risk and we don't.
Actually served, because we're so afraid of coming off as salesy or of actually selling it because we're so afraid to hear that now.
We're so afraid of the rejection.
And a lot of the work with that I have done with clients is.
I call it detaching from the sale.
And it doesn't mean that you lean all the way back and you don't care if they say yes or no. It means that you show up in service and yes or no doesn't mean anything about you as a human.
Or your value, or your worthiness. And I think that that for so many, especially starting out entrepreneurs who are, you know coaches selling services.
That is one of the key pieces that you have to unravel my first 100K year, I spent most of the time unraveling.
Feeling terrible when I would hear no, like I wanted to be an actress when I was growing up, but I was so scared of going to all of these auditions and hearing no, that it would just absolutely crumble me. So I was like, yeah, well, I'm just not going to do that. And then.
I got into sales was like.
What do you know going to have to?
Hear know a lot?
And you get I.
You don't get really used to it. And I also think that.
As women, the idea of getting a yes is sometimes just as scary as getting a no, because now you've got a client you gotta do without.
Yeah, yeah. Now you've got to execute and take action and help someone, and then then up comes all of the thoughts about well, am I good enough? Am I worth it? Should I be the person that they hire? Can I actually help them? All of these doubts come to the surface.
Yeah. And it's really, I think it's easier to sell other people stuff than your own stuff.
Because your own stuff is like, unless you're really a confident human being, it's much easier to boost somebody else as a woman, it's much easier to boost somebody else up and say, hey, look at this person over here and how great they are and all the things they do and it it's less. It's it is honestly less personal.
Because you.
You know.
Yeah, you're not going.
To get paid, but it's not all about you either.
Right, your ego's not on the line, right? It's like how, how easy is it for us to tell us about, you know, 2023 was the year of the Stanley Tumblr. How easy is it for us to tell each other about the Stanley Tumblr when there's nothing riding on it for us?
Us. It's just like, hey, oh, my God. This thing is amazing or oh, my God, did you are you wearing these shoes or this brand or this purse? Right. That's so much easier for us to have energy and confidence behind because there's nothing on the line.
And when it comes to selling your services and your work, what's on the line is your ego.
And so much.
Of the work.
That that I've done with clients and that I've had.
To do myself is.
That detaching from the sale, detaching from any meaning that your goals have or the yes or the no has about you as a human you are just doing the work of a business.
When it comes to sales, because if you're not selling, you don't have a business you.
Might have a hobby.
But you have to go out and sell in order to make money one way or another. It's either going to cost you an.
You know, time and going up and meeting people and showing up or it's gonna cost you in money and in advertising or in being.
Physically, at places that you pay to be at.
Yeah. And you have to be making offers.
You always have to be making offers and you have to know how to make the offer in a way that.
100.
Is appealing to the person that you're trying to help. There's a lot of things that go behind, actually.
Making an offer that I think.
People, women in particular, who get into coaching, they don't really think about all of these other aspects of.
What it means to be an entrepreneur and what it means to be in business for yourself, they're just like they just want to help people.
Yeah. And that's where I was at too. When I first started coaching, it changed my life so fundamentally that like it pulled me out of a really negative depression cycle.
I was actively hunting for something to help my brain.
Because I was.
Like I do this every night and we play the same tape every night and I cry myself to sleep every night for six months and this is stupid and I'm done and I'm over it and.
That's not me. That's not where I want to go. That's not who.
I want to be how do I get out of this?
And that is how I found coaching. This was after.
A stent with breast cancer at 35. And I've worked with other survivors because I was like, look, I can't be the only one who's like, I do not accept this label. And I this is not my identity.
I plan to thrive after this, I plan to move forward. After this, I can't be alone in that.
And yeah, like I think that we so often find.
Something like coaching, much like the therapy wave that came before us as coaches, that we find how transformational it that it is and we have hearts of service. And so we want to help people with the thing that we've learned.
And so many coaches specifically.
Just do not understand at the beginning what it actually takes to run a business. It's much more than let me create a website and hold out my shingle and hope people come or let me send one e-mail or post one time on Facebook and hope people come. That's what I thought and I had run a successful business before, but it's **** is different.
Because I was selling a product versus selling.
My services and.
I think so many people just don't quite understand all of the moving parts that happen, and so it's much easier for them to say, well, I tried it five times and it didn't work for me or let me go work for someone else. And it's like if you know that you have a passion on your heart and you are a helper.
In the world, one of the most powerful and important things that you can do is learn.
All of the skill sets that.
That it takes to run a business however, you want to learn it however long you want.
To take to do it.
I think having your own business gives.
Do so much more freedom as just a woman in this world.
And especially as coach in the world.
And it's so significant and you shouldn't.
Be afraid to pay for help.
You know, people go.
100%.
And spend hundreds, hundreds of thousands of dollars to get business degrees.
In universities.
And think nothing of it.
Like, probably think a lot of it when.
They're paying back those student.
Loans but.
For sure.
But it's.
What? What makes people think that you can just, you know, hang out your shingle and open a website? You have no idea about web design or how things connect together. And you know, I know that that's what they teach you and coaching courses they lead you to believe that, you know, pay me.
You know, $10,000 or whatever cost to get certified as the.
Life, health and.
Transformational coach and we'll help you get started. We'll help you get started.
Not nearly enough.
Yeah, there's so much more skill building that goes into it.
You know, there's the market research that everybody wants to skip because we have this great idea. We still feel so passionate about something. But if you don't slow down.
To take the time to figure out.
What is?
Who? Who actually is my dream client and what do they want to buy right now? What is the problem that is on fire for them that they are willing to whip out their credit card to solve it? Today, they're already looking for it.
You don't ever have to do any convincing when you're messaging.
Speaks to those.
But that's a skill.
They'll track you down.
Yeah. Oh, 100%. I mean, I have people in my DMS every day because I.
Speak specifically to.
That problem that's on fire for them. They want to make more sales more consistently and with more ease and fun. It's like.
It's simple but.
That does not mean that it didn't take work.
It took me.
A while to figure that.
Out and I think we've just been sold.
There this is not new to the coaching world or even the Internet, right. There have always been just spend this amount of money and you'll be a millionaire. There have always been those games since as far back as we can track, you know, print and even before then, right?
Before then it.
Was the gold rush was all about.
Exactly right. Like, just stake this claim and buy this claim. And you too will be a gold billionaire. And it's like, that's not exactly how that worked, but.
But the shopkeepers made a lot.
Of money, right? But I think it's easy.
The human brain wants to believe that it's easier than it is and what I'm.
Really want people to know is that.
Simple and easy are not the same thing.
Learning how to message is simple. Learning how to sell is simple. That does not mean that it's easy. That does not mean that you're going to master it overnight. You have to be willing to practice. You have to be willing to take a lot of action and screw it up in order to learn what's going to work for your ideal people. And I think so many people are like.
Just tell me.
Exactly what to say.
And it's not that simple because your audience is different. Your skill set is different. That's on you to learn. Nobody can just hand you a magic key, even though our human brains want the simplest, easiest path.
The work is in. You have to. Yeah, you have to figure it out for your specific audience.
And the sure.
They want a surefire thing they don't want.
To test and see and.
Right. And what guarantees?
Be curious. Yeah, and there are no guarantees. Life doesn't come with guarantees.
Death and taxes.
But it also doesn't criticize you if you try and sometimes just getting a whole bunch of nose is the best thing you can get because it gives you some experience. It shows you what doesn't work and you know, sometimes if you're really not very confident, ask your friends.
Right.
Hey, let me practice on you.
Be tough. Don't want to buy from me.
Help me.
To figure out how.
To navigate this in a way that.
Allows me to be in my authentic voice, but.
Also helps me to hear no from people that I'm I trust and that I feel safe around.
You know.
And practice.
Hearing now.
It's like.
Yeah. It's kind of like exposure therapy, right?
Yeah. And I think you know so many people.
Hesitate to hear now. They're afraid to get on sales calls because they might hear now, and that's exactly it. It's like whatever you can do to create a safe environment for yourself. If you're just starting out to hear no consistently.
There is so much more learning in the no's than there is in the. Yes, there's so much more learning in the failure than there is from.
Your successes.
But you have to be willing to fail. You have to be willing to hear. No, you have to be willing to get your messaging wrong.
In order to.
Figure out how to get it right.
And it's never about you. It's never about you. It's just OK, though, that wording didn't land.
What else am I going to try?
And it doesn't mean that you're a bad person, or that you're a failure. It just means that that way didn't work. Let's try something new.
Yeah, I think that learning is the number one gift that an entrepreneur can have, and that doesn't mean like just go spend all of your business. I'm learning.
But that does mean like, be willing to learn from what's working and what's not every week.
And then you know what to do different the next week and you learn so much faster and you make progress so much faster.
Yeah, you do make progress faster and even if you have to go out and.
Yourself for somebody else for a little while.
Try. Try that and listen to what a.
Variety of people.
Have to say on sales, not just like one person, because.
Different people approach sales in different ways.
And even some of the bro marketers out there.
That kind of make my skin crawl, but they have, they have things that they do.
That if you.
Kind of like.
Pull them back a little bit. Rein them in.
Are sound principles, but some of them teach things that are like.
God, I wish that on my worst enemy.
Yeah, there can be sound principles executed grossly right.
Yes, yes, that's exactly it.
And then there's some.
Principles executed with.
You know, without pressure, with ease, with integrity, with consent.
Yeah, it's all in the way.
The other thing like.
That you approach it.
The other thing I.
Think is that people need to learn.
How to say no?
If you can say no to others and women.
Almost universally have trouble saying no, they'll say. Maybe, or I'll think about it, but they won't just say no, they won't own the no. So they.
Have a hard.
Time hearing it from other people, they're like, well, I would never tell anybody. No. So why is somebody telling me no? So practice saying no. If you don't want to do something, you don't have to be mean about it. But just say no.
No, I don't think I'm going to do that.
And stand your ground.
Because people will, people will push on you.
And if you can.
Learn to stand your ground. Then you can also learn to help people.
Figure out why they're saying no, because if you have somebody on the phone with you, obviously they're interested in whatever it is that you're doing. Something drew them to be on the phone call with you, and if they're talking, if you're, if you've explained what your office is.
And a lot of.
Times. That's where the problem comes in is you don't explain the offer very clearly so that the person doesn't understand how they're going to benefit from this or how they're going to get the result that they're looking for.
And they'll tell you nowhere. I have to think about it, but I have to think about it. It's usually because they don't understand what it is you've said. And so they think that they're going to go away and.
And maybe think about it, but nobody ever does, because once you hang up.
The phone. That's it. They're gone.
So if they ever tell you they're going to.
Think about it. They're not.
It's probably just to know.
Yeah, assume it's a no.
Taking the responsibility.
Yeah. Well, and so many people are afraid to hear. No, because they're afraid that they're going to make.
So that's why I say practice it.
Somebody else mad?
Or they're going to queue for them. The sales push and they don't want to experience that and.
It is my experience that.
People love to be sold to, but they don't love to feel.
Sold to and there's a difference.
But you can never really worry about.
Making someone mad you're no is not about them, you know, is about the offer. So yes, you know more often is actually incredibly helpful and builds your belief that it's OK and it's a safe place for you to say no and it's OK and a safe place for other people to say no to you.
And I think it's so.
Absolutely critical to not take a note personally.
To understand and make a decision ahead of time in your own mind that.
Any no is not about me as a human. It's not about my value.
It's not about my worth.
There's just something missing in my selling. Maybe I didn't explain the offer well enough. Maybe I didn't link.
It back to.
The results that they're going to get, maybe they felt some kind of pressure and I need to work on creating a safe space for them to say yes or no or to even like, have the conversation. The decision making conversation that's in their mind.
Out loud with me.
Yeah. And not being afraid to ask for them to have that conversation with you and in a way that's respectful. You know, I would like to help you make this decision whether it's yes or no, it's really OK that I would like to help you. And I've reframed selling in my mind is helping people.
To make a decision.
Because that's all it is.
If you genuinely want and care for that person to.
Get the best.
You have to offer and if what you have to offer truly will help them. I think it's criminal for you not to offer them.
To make the offer to them and then explore with them, you know.
Where their pulling points are, you know if it's if it generally if it genuinely is money, there's things you can do around money to make it so that it works for them. You can't just be like so married to it's got to be this.
Everything is negotiable.
What you're willing to do and what they're willing to do if what you have to offer is really what they want. And if they say, oh, that's too expensive, I can't afford that, then the next thing out of your mouth needs to be, well, setting the money aside. Is this something you want to do? Because if you can get down to the, yes, it is or the. No, it isn't.
Then you just working out the money.
Details and that's.
That's not a big deal.
Yeah. And I think so many people are afraid to, especially women, because we've been taught not to talk about money and.
And he's not. Not for us. He's. It's that. It's confusing or money's bad. Exactly.
It's like having the money conversation is in service to your people. My reframe for selling is that selling is serving and exactly the same as you like. If you if I know for sure that I can help you get a result and I see that you are suffering it, does you a wild disservice for me to not sell to you, to not offer, to help you, and to show you how.
Helping you and you taking these next steps will help you get where you.
Want to?
Go. And here's the thing, y'all people will find the money for the things that they truly want.
Period. Full stop. Even if their first thought is I don't have it. Yeah, nobody has, like, coaching money, just laying around. Few people have coaching as a budget line item, unless they're a really big company that pays for leadership, coaching for the most part. Most people don't have a budget line item for coaching.
And it's OK. We will still go spend, you know 1003 thousand 5000 on a purse because we want it to make us feel a particular way.
It's the same with anything else when you really want something, you will find a way.
And so part of your work in in the messaging and in the selling conversation is continuing to loop back to what is the result that they want, what's the desired outcome that they want and why do they want that?
I keep pointing back.
To here's how well it will, I will.
Help you get it.
Here's how I will help you do it.
And don't be afraid to ask for the money.
The higher amount of money because.
When you pay, you have.
To stretch to get something.
You do value it more.
If you're, if you're just like.
Everyday spending you don't think about it that much and you may pay 25 for 30 or 50 or 150 whatever your limit is on.
Coaching things.
And I know I've done this before. I'll get stuff, but I'll never look at it.
Or I'll go.
Through it briefly, I'll just skim through it.
To see what it's about.
Never go back to it.
Yep, I will tell you that.
In my experience, I have had.
Friends that were in tight financial situations and I would give them literally free access to multiple 5 figure offers and say look just come here. Let me help you.
Do you have any idea how many of those people actually did anything with any of that information exactly?
Gooseneck none of them, and they are all still exactly where they were because they didn't have any skin in the game.
Not because the information wasn't amazing. They didn't do anything with it because they didn't have.
Any skin in the game.
And so yeah, I mean I feel the same way with pricing it's like.
There are some things that I will always have in my suite of offers that are free.
And accessible.
Accessible pricing.
But for the people who are serious and who really want to get results and are ready to come do the work.
That it takes to.
Grow a business that feels aligned with your values.
You have to have skin in the game.
I want it to feel not like you're going to go throw up every day because it's costing you so much money, but I want it to feel a little bit stretchy a little.
Bit edgy. It should.
Or you won't take it seriously.
Yeah, everything else will come before that.
It's like dieting. You know, if you pay some money to help get help with your dieting, you can just.
Spend a little more attention on it.
Versus, you know, I'm just going to make my New Year's resolution to eat better.
Yeah. Guess what? That never works.
This is the same Cox thing.
You know there's.
Yeah. Don't have anything invested in it and.
You may want.
It. But really it's, yeah.
Well, and the way that I think about, you know our problems and selling and especially when it comes to coaching is that everything costs us something.
It either cost.
You with your attention, your time or your money.
And so you have to think about where am I spending?
Where and what am I spending?
And if I had a faster path, would I be willing to spend a little bit more here in order to save in one of those other areas?
Whether it's I'm willing to spend a year learning how to detach from the sale.
So that I don't have to spend.
That money on those sales calls.
Because after 100 knows.
It starts to.
Hurt emotionally, right? It starts to hurt your confidence starts your belief in yourself, and you're not making money, but you're spending a.
Lot of time on those calls.
Learning the hard way.
You spend the money.
Yeah, you're spending money, you're losing money. And so it's like I would rather invest in a program that I know will help me get better at that faster than spend the time.
Falling on my face over and over and over with no one.
To help me figure out how to do.
And the same is true with your clients.
Everybody listening the same is true with.
Your clients, where are they spending?
When they could be saving.
Because we always look at the money we're like. Oh, but.
It's too expensive.
OK. But what's it costing you in stress in time? It's costing you and money elsewhere too.
Pharmaceutical drugs to take care of your problems, or at least mask them over so that you can function.
Yeah, I know of one person who's a coach and she actually saved her clients. Her coaching program wasn't inexpensive, but it was.
She actually saved her clients like $350.00 a month because she got them off of all these drugs that they were paying for drugs expensive.
Yeah, that's always a great place to look, right. It's always a great place to look. It's like, what are they? What else are they spending their money on thinking that it's?
Legal or otherwise.
Solving the problem.
Yeah, you could help them add that up. Like actually this is going to help you save money down the line.
Just cost benefits, for example.
So I know you get.
You have a.
An offer that you make for people, it's called the consent.
The consensual sales master class. I'm sorry. I was trying.
To read my writing.
I should have been.
A doctor.
So you want to talk?
A little bit about that.
Yeah, so I created this class to help people have, especially coaches, have better sales calls that feel.
Less salesy because so many of us are so afraid of being salesy. That's like you're only salesy when you're pushing.
When and that's really only happening when you.
Were attached to the yes.
And so I teach you how to have consensual sales conversations that just feel like a natural.
Conversation with somebody and helps lead them to.
The questions that you ask at the end do you want?
To do this work.
Do you wanna do it with me?
And like you said, putting aside the price.
Do you want this? Do you want this outcome?
Are you willing to do the work that it takes to get there? Cause those honest answers.
In form, whether or not they're a good fit client for you.
And it makes your sales percentages go up. So what I found for so many of my clients who go through this is they may have started with 10 to 20% close rates, which are supposed to be like golden, right? That's like the golden rule.
And we took them closer to 70 and 80.
Percent close rates.
Because it's just.
A free flowing conversation where you're honoring someone's humanity, you're present with them, you're attentive. You've built rapport.
And it just feels like an amazing conversation where you come to an empowered decision together.
I'm going to decide if I want to work with you. If I know for sure I can help you in my programs, you're going to decide if you want to work with me and if you want to do.
The work that's inside this program and we move forward together or not and it never means anything.
About you.
And that means that you can show up fully in service without feeling needy or clingy, or gross or slimy. Whatever adjectives you attach to sales, it lets you just be present with the client.
And help them make a good decision.
And those conversations are still amazing. Whether they end up being your client or not right now.
You may find that.
They fit into something later on, or that as you evolve, then we're always constantly evolving that they may circle back.
Or they may not, but.
Yeah, and that's always welcome too. But I will tell you that the people that you use this kind of structure with, they never feel sold to.
They never feel like you're twisting their arms or trying to pin them down, or trying to make them make a decision.
And that will create more and more raving fans and referrals until like this, system is always a win and it's always feels to me at least. And for my clients and our experience, it always feels.
Like a good conversation, it always feels like you are genuinely helping someone, and I think that's what we all want.
I think so.
Too. So how can people get in touch with you?
Sure, of course. So my website is Melanie childers.com and you can get your copy of the consensual sales conversations on that main page.
And I also run a podcast called The Bad ***** Entrepreneur. Check that out on Apple Podcasts and everywhere else that you stream and listen to podcast. And I'm on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and all the fun places. Just have a little search for me. I'm impossible to miss. I'm loud and.
And I'm everywhere.
I love it. And you like pink.
I do. I have wearing pink? I have a pink on my giant painting behind me. My website's pink, yes.
I did notice.
That I love it.
So what's the one thing you want to leave the audience with today?
Oh gosh, there's so many things. How do I dial it down to a bite size piece?
I think the main thing is that selling is service.
You offering your services?
To people is doing them a.
Absolute respectful in service thing to do for the right people. You don't just of course, randomly offer your stuff to everybody, but for the right people. It's selfish and in and a disservice to not sell.
And do not make your offer to.
Them so please.
Go on apologetically. Stop worrying about what your Mama and your cousin and your sister and your friends from high school think about you.
And go offer your services today. Go sell today every day because the more conversations you have, the more sales you will make.
I couldn't agree with you more.
Thank you so much for joining me. This has been amazing.
Oh, this has been such a blast. Thank you so much for having me and huge hug to all of your.
Listeners y'all go get it.