Dr. Phyllis Quinlan – is certified as a professional coach by the Internal Coaching Federation. And Author, since 2012, she has served as the career coach for the American Organization of Perioperative Nurses which has over 44,000 members, and the American Nurses Association NY State Chapter and was named to the outstanding list of coaches serving the American Hospital Association.
Here to share her knowledge on how to optimize health & well-being to accelerate personal and professional growth.
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dr phyliss quinlan podcast.m4a
Transcript
Hi and welcome to the You World Order Showcase podcast. I'm your host, Jill Hart and today we have with us Doctor Phyllis Quinlan. She is a certified professional coach by the International Coaching Federation and an author since 2012, she has served as the career coach for the American Organization of Perioperative Nurses, which has over 44,000.
Members and the American Nurses Association, New York State chapter and was named to the outstanding list of coaches serving the American Hospital Association. She's here to share with us her knowledge on how to optimize health and well-being to accelerate personal and professional growth. Welcome to the show, Phyllis.
It's really nice to have you with.
Yes.
I love being here. Jill. Thank you for the invitation.
So tell us your story. How did you get started? Why are you doing all the?
Things so you know it's it's been quite the journey. And I I started as a registered nurse. I you know, I actually well before that I started as a psychiatric social worker and I was a psychiatric social worker for about 20 minutes before I realized I actually wanted to be a nurse.
So I went back to school and finished my baccalaureate degree in nursing and had a very varied career in administration, education and clinical.
I've been a director of Education, director of unit, director of facility and I have really practiced in a lot of particular venues, but predominantly in critical care, emergency trauma and for and during the 90s, early 2000s when we had managed care, I found myself in the subacute care venue because we were.
Discharging patients from the acute care facility sicker and quicker, and those particular nurses did not. They weren't ready for the acuity that was coming to them. So I found myself, you know, helping to bridge that gap. But back in 1994, again with managed care.
There I had a little bit of an entrepreneurial itch and I saw a gap and a need and I saw the ability to fill that need and I decided there was, you know, some cross training that needed to be done again because of managed care. You don't you no longer find an orderly in a hospital or a nursing assistant.
You find a patient care technician or someone else, and these are many roles wrapped up into one. But that training had to.
Happen nurses were no longer Med search nurses. They were, you know, telemetry nurses and emergency department nurses. All of the Med surge patients were going to the sub acute care facilities. Someone had to train those nurses. We had a lot of money because of collective bargaining groups. And we had a lot of money from the new.
York state governor.
We didn't have a lot of trainers, so I saw an opportunity. I created my company and I started my company doing cross training for about the next six or seven years and I just.
Just you know, I never took a business class in my life. It's been intuitive for reading and self-taught, but I celebrated my company's 30th anniversary this past January, and it's a real me myself and I operation. I outsource as needed, but I'm quite proud of the accomplishment.
It should be I. It's that's a big deal. It's a really big deal to go from, you know, social care worker to.
Really.
Stepping up and providing those kinds of services in a place like New York, I mean that's that's huge.
Yeah, yeah. If you can make it there, right?
I'm sorry I missed that last thing you said.
I.
If you can make it.
There. Yeah, you can make it anywhere, right? Isn't that how it goes?
That's right.
So.
Right now how? How does your business operate? I know you were talking about training people as they were transitioning from different medical models and it looks to me on the outside as somebody who's not involved in traditional medicine, that the medical community is changing again.
Since the pandemic, things things seem to be changing.
Thing am I wrong?
You're not wrong. You're you're spot on. So you know my my organization is a multi service organization. I have moved from cross training to leadership development to healthcare consulting to executive coaching and of course coaching professional and family caregivers. So I don't zoom in on just one.
You know, Elite group of executives. I coach everyone who has a need for Co.
And I really, you know, benefit from that as a coach because I hear it all. And you know, there are a lot of professional professional caregivers out there regardless of how they manifest their caregiving. You don't need a license or a certification. You could be a family member or you could be in environmental services. You are still serving.
You are still caregiving and and that needs to be respected so ioffer coaching services to all of those folks, I think the the question you're asking is, you know, what has changed to, you know, to 2024?
And without a doubt COVID it has been that demarcation. You know, we all have those moments, you know, for my parents, I imagine it was the the depression in World War Two, you know. And then as we go forward, it might be the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the women's movement, you know.
Certainly for me and my age group, it was Vietnam and the women's movement that shaped my future and how I thought and how I conducted myself.
And I think we're going to hear a lot of talk around well pre COVID or before COVID and then post COVID. So what happened in healthcare after COVID, let's let's start with what happened in healthcare during COVID because something phenomenal happened during healthcare.
During COVID, granted, we had to go back to a leadership leadership approach that I don't endorse. It's called transactional leadership. In other words, the work has to get done, but because of the nature of the beast and it was a pandemic and and there was no.
It had to get done. We had to beat back this bug. You know that that was the approach that worked. It wasn't the approach I would advocate for now, but in the moment, those two years, that was the approach that needed to happen. And certainly that was the approach that worked. The extraordinary thing that happened is for the 40 years before that.
Right.
As a practicing nurse, I taught interprofessional collaboration I dreamed of into professional collaboration. I spoke about into professional collaboration. I had never lived it, but.
Come March of 2020, there it was happening in front of me and you know where people were like, OK, it we have a common enemy here and status and rank and ego has no place in the room. So our beloved, you know, infection prevention people and our beloved environmental services people were.
As important to us as a surgeon or a physician, and in my humble opinion.
In.
It was about time, you know, and and we we just all came together with a collective focus against one common enemy and the professional caregivers of this world and the scientist beat back that bug and save the planet. I will say that till the day I die and I am so proud to be a part of that in.
Yeah.
Some small way.
Here's what happened after COVID no sooner.
No sooner than was the immediate thing over and things, there was some semblance of normalcy. You know, we had a vaccine. We had infusions. We knew what to do. You know, we weren't, you know.
Building this plane while we were flying it, we we had some semblance of a game plan or a, you know, a procedure book to to fight COVID and egos started taking over and silos started to be recreated. People went back into on this and you're that. And here's my authority. And you're over here.
And it.
Was.
It was hurtful to see that happen because it wasn't necessary. We should have been banging pots and celebrating the fact that we finally broke through that interprofessional barrier and appreciated each other as a team, as a collective and and and a sense that had solidarity in healthcare like we've never seen in my life.
And to see it dissolve and go backwards was heartbreaking. So here's what has happened.
When I when I talked to people who navigated through COVID, these are the professional caregivers who remember professional caregivers, didn't get a break. They took care of everyone, and then they went home.
And took care of whatever COVID Nealey was there, so there was no getting away from COVID. No, you know, other other organizations, industries, professions, if you will maybe stayed home and didn't have to care for that. But for professional caregivers it was 24/7. There was no getting away from it, which was extraordinarily difficult.
When I say to them, tell me one thing. Tell me just one thing you learned about yourself when you navigated COVID almost to a person. They're telling me I'm stronger.
Than I ever thought I could be.
And there is an element in the media that wants to say that everybody in Healthcare is burnt out and dried up and I'm here to tell you I'm talking to them on a daily basis and that's not what I'm hearing. What I'm hearing is I'm stronger than I ever thought I could be, which is the language of growth, not the language of post traumatic stress and defeat.
That is not.
Well, they are bone tired because they never got a break and the two years people might have been furloughed or homeschooling or had their life changed in various ways.
The healthcare providers were 24/7. They dealt with it at home and they.
Dealt with it at work.
And we are, they are physically wearied, you know, weary. And of course, you know, there is that mental stress of, I don't know if two weeks is enough vacation, you know, I got to put this all back together in some kind of.
Place but but are we separated from mission and purpose? And that's really the definition of burnout. Do we no longer understand why we do what we do? Are we separated from mission and purpose and I have to tell you COVID anchored that.
What happened though is that because they.
They they went through the COVID experience and came out of it with a sense of growth, not defeat.
Right, that they found themselves more capable. They found themselves more competent. They found themselves more empowered.
And what has happened is that.
Some people haven't gotten that message and they want these these, you know, they want the bedside workers to put that genie back in the bottle. Like, you know, this new and improved or this, this, this growing, this empowered, newly empowered person, you know, that's just lovely for you. But can we go back to the way it was? And there is no going back to the way it was.
So.
The industry is experiencing people leaving, not leaving the professions, and I really want to be clear here. They're not leaving nursing, respiratory therapy, physical therapy, social work, medicine. They're going to find an organization that will create a healthy work environment enough to support their new growth.
They're they're in search of. They're not running from, they are in search of so.
I think they're sometimes creating their own opportunities, like coaches are like.
And some of them.
Blowing up everywhere.
Yes, densities are making money making apps doing, you know, because they're they. They're DNA is digital, you know. And and they they can figure that out. So people are they're they're practicing their profession but in very new and very innovative ways because they're experienced with COVID again I'm stronger than I ever thought I could be.
Yeah.
Has allowed them to take a risk when before. Maybe they would have thought better of it.
So here's the leadership imperative for the 21st century within Healthcare is that you have to appreciate what the transformation your staff has gone under, and you have to elevate or level up your, your, your leadership experience, your leadership style, your leadership approach to match that.
Or you're going to bleed talent. Clinical talent organizations have to understand that their leaders have gone through this transformational experience as well and they have to level up the organizations in order to meet the the newly, the, the, the, the newly experienced or newly growing leader.
Or they will bleed to talent from a leadership level, which is a catastrophe to any organization. So there we are. So the the question now is you know is the organization ready, willing and able.
To level up in order to capitalize on the transformation that has happened to staff leadership and and and if they can, they will absolutely be successful. And if they can't, well, we we read about healthcare organizations closing across the country for various reasons.
And part of it has to do with retaining talent.
Do you find?
That more and more medical associations let me put it this way, I know I live in a very small community and we're connected to a slightly larger community on two sides. Any the big city is like a couple hours away.
So what I'm seeing just from a layperson's perspective, is that doctors are being sucked into medical organizations more than they used to be. You used to be able to find independent doctors and nurses that were just like their own little satellite deal.
But more and more, it seems like they're just becoming part of this bigger collective. That's.
It's like there's.
Three or four big conglomerate medical conglomerates.
That are are, are dictating medical policy across the board. So it's like it, it's really starting way up high and trickling down.
Yeah. So that be that kind of started back in the late 90s with managed care or the mid to late 90s and insurance companies started doing that. The healthcare organizations started as well and and I can tell you you know I've been hired to do some consulting and some organizations where they come in and then the.
The chief executive officer says why do I have to hire you to teach compassion to nurses? Isn't that on their DNA?
And you know, my answer is well, in the last 10 years of managed care, what did you ask the nurses to do? Because nurses will do what you ask them to do. Physicians will do what you ask them to do. And I said, I I have practiced and lived and led through it. And I heard about downsizing, right sizing efficiencies, doing more with less.
You know, consolidation of resources, I heard a business model. Nobody used the word caring in the last eight years that I can remember.
So did you ask them to care? Because if you didn't ask them to care, they became business people, which is not their DNA, which is where burnout happened. There was a disconnect between mission and purpose and what their souls incarnated on this planet to do versus what they were asked to do in order to keep their their jobs. And you know, I got to give a real big shout out to the Laura Brain Foundation.
Lauren Breen was a physician here in New York who took her own life. And out of that tragedy, her family.
Really rallied around her mission and purpose and realized that she had some.
Some real medical health issues that were ignored and unattended, and of course the consequences. What I stated and they are bound and determined that Laurence, you know, learner's rather legacy will be that no other physician should have.
To go there.
Or no other nurse for that matter. So you know we're.
They're trying to. They are trying to not just talk about.
Taking the stigma out of healthcare or medical medical health needs, but they're also trying to say to organizations I, you know, make it doable. For God's sake make it doable. You can't defy the law of gravity or the law of physics here. You can't put 8 lbs in a 10 LB bag and not expect to seem to rip. So you know how many physicians do I know that are working extraordinary.
Hours and then have to go home and put in extraordinary hours to catch up on their documentation. And I know nurses that are doing the same way because, you know, let's let's capitalize that. Everybody having a PC at home so that they can extend the work day.
You know, from 12 hours to 16 hours. Of course, with no compensation, but the expectation is there. And I think what is happening is that you know to to quote a famous line from network, the movie that everybody's a little mad as hell and not going to take it anymore. So people are really rethinking.
How much they're going to do, and here's the other piece, the generation behind us is watching very closely and saying I won't let that happen to me.
Yeah.
So of course, because you you're not going to get that same.
Response. Not because they're not willing and able to give their very best each and every day, but because they see the consequences of doing your very best for the business and not necessarily for the patient. They're like, no, I'm just not going to go there. My mental health isn't worth.
Whatever you're going to pay me and we're going to label those, those very intelligent people as not having a work ethic or, you know, you know, those millennials are driving us crazy, you know, and all of this other stuff. And quite honestly, I think there's a lot to be learned from the younger population.
I could not agree more, are they?
Yeah, it's it's far as you know, just making sure we we just make everything equitable and we and we respect the laws of physics, you cannot put 5 lbs in a 10 LB bag and not expect something to give you know. So. So yeah, if you're an organization that's ready to embrace this, you're going to thrive.
If you're an organization that's trying to, you know, cling to the status quo, you're going to have issues.
Yeah, I I've got like, so many directions. Like this conversation. You start with the younger generation and I have. I have kids on both ends. I have a 42 year old daughter and a 20 year old daughter. And the 42 year olds looking at.
I mean, she's a go getter and she's out there, and she and her husband have their own business, but they have their boundaries on.
She's a millennial. She and he are millennial.
Yeah, well, I have a Gen. Gen. Xer also who's like.
OK.
No, I'm just gonna. I'm going to be a Baker. It's what I like doing. I'm not going to college. I'm not interested in it. You know, she's black belt in karate, and that's her passion in her life. And you know the income part, that's not the important part of her life.
Heart.
No, it's mood. She sees it. She hears a different drummer. She does.
And the densities will be similar.
I've been waiting for Gen. sees all my life. I'm an old hippie from the, you know, the the the 60s. So you know, I I look at the Gen. Z's and I'm I see their passion for issues, climate, gun control, equity, diversity, inclusion and I'm like.
MHM.
And not stop.
50 years. You know they don't.
Care about stuff.
No, no, they don't care about stuff. But here's the thing. They keep it in a perspective. Do you know what I mean? So I'm not? I'm not. I'm not allergic to hustling. If I have to hustle. In other words, if I have to, you know, devote 2 weeks to, to or whatever it takes to build an app.
Yeah.
Well, then I'm going to do that. So I I am generating income and not going to be living in my parents attic, you know kind of.
Right.
I'm just going to do it differently and I think this is finally the generation who understands that's that different and wrong are not synonyms.
Yeah, that we've been battling that for the better part of 25 years. That well, they're doing it different and that makes it wrong. No, no, it makes it different.
Just makes it.
Makes it different, yeah.
And different is good. We need different because.
What has always been?
Doesn't it different comes about because what was we were doing before wasn't working for the majority of the people.
It's healthy to question from time to time. I'm not saying throw the baby out the bath water, but you know, I mean, if there's a if you can build a better mousetrap, it's healthy to question.
You know, and let's face it, I the the digital age is not on my DNA. I am what? It's a paper and pencil. I have had to hire 12 year olds to help me with the digital things I need to know. You know, being on all the social platforms that I'm at, you know, I've hired the appropriate young people to help me with that and.
You know, and and and I'm. I do my best to keep.
Up, but I have that classic panic when you know it goes from Windows 7 to Windows 10. I break out into a cold sweat because Oh my God, am I gonna be in lamaster this and my whole family laughs at me and says of course you are. But that's my generation. Their generation is very different. They're they there's a faith in what?
Is, and there's a faith in themselves that is unparalleled in my experience, and there's what I love about the Gen. Z's is their willingness to get involved, their willingness to run for government, their willingness to get out the vote and vote because.
X's and Y's, or you know, X's in millennials, the big complaint we had was that they never voted. You know, they they're they're willing to take a piece of ownership and accountability and put their money where their mouth is. And I can work with that person till hell freezes over. You know, it's it's just, it's just really rewarding.
Yeah.
For me to work with those folks, I get excited when I watch them, and when I I get excited when I.
See them on YouTube.
Or you know.
Gosh, you know Facebook or you know.
They're energizing. They're it's, they're exciting, they're just exciting and it it it just revives, you know, younger former days in myself, where people get involved and it matters that people are getting involved, they see that it matters. But to get back to leadership, I I think that.
You know, some of some of the leaders, especially my generation, are a little bit younger.
And and some leaders said respectfully, are not clinicians, they don't speak healthcare, they speak business, you know, have to broaden themselves a little bit more to understand the heart and soul of a professional caregiver and that we're not stupid. We probably have a good deal of MBA's behind, you know.
After our.
We understand the business of the industry, but you cannot solely talk about business without feeding the soul of someone who's doing something that they were incarnated into this into this world to do. And if you try to separate that professional caregiver from, you know, and the business person.
You know, then you you wind up with, you know. Well, I guess we have to teach them empathy and compassion.
No, that the if. If you're there, that is a real action plan about something that went really wrong. You know, if you have to read dose your people about empathy and compassion. Boy, have you messed.
Up.
And and and I hope you will redose and I hope you will try to get people back, but you've put the finance or the business of healthcare ahead of the practice of healthcare.
And your patients will suffer for that.
And patients will find other alternatives.
You know, the patients will feel it OK, they they they won't be able to articulate it. They'll just tell you I wasn't comfortable there or I couldn't make connection or we just didn't get along because you know, you can purge just so much out of someone.
And then they they no longer make that connection. So you know, it's it. Here's where I got started as a coach with the whole idea of caregiver fatigue or empathy fatigue. Call it what you want.
But it was a real detachment for mission and purpose because there was so much emphasis on business, business, business, downsizing, right sizing, whatever the case may be.
And what I've now the remedy for that, I believe, is emotional intelligence, training and and understanding that, you know with self-awareness, you know the universe will hand you these what I call boot camp moments. And I'm sure the military analogy is not lost on you. This is a moment. You know where whatever you didn't want to happen happened.
Or whatever you want it to happen. Didn't happen, but either way, you're miserable and the the universe. Officially, this opportunity to find out where you're strong.
Or to find out where you still need to do some work.
And if you accept that boot camp moment and you choose some glass around habitual behaviors that are no longer serving you and you, you find that the the, the strength and the heart inside of you to challenge yourself, to let go of what it was because it got you here. But it's not going to get you.
There and you find that courage. Well, then what happens is, is that you make this connection with just how hard it is to be a human being in the 21st century, let alone a healthcare provider in the 21st century, let alone a human in the 21st century. And it you. You recognized the struggle.
That then creates an awareness in you.
About struggle so that you can look at a stranger and you can see that they're struggling and you could go up to them and say, I don't know what you're dealing with, but I know struggle when I see it and I'm here for you or I just want you to know, hang on because you know it'll be better tomorrow or whatever you want to say to that person. But here's where authentic leadership.
Lies. It lies in the ability to be human and not necessarily a leader for power.
Say.
It it lies in the ability to, as I you know, this, this this self-awareness struggle that we have that I are akin to chewing on glass. You know how wonderful that must feel. You know where you realize as a competent, accomplished adult, you're not quite there yet. That's tough to swallow, you know, but.
If you can navigate it well, that empathy and that appreciation for just how hard it is to be in the 21st century.
You can then go to your staff and you can see their struggle. You can and and and in saying to someone I don't know what you're dealing with, but I'm here for you.
Because you you've had your own struggle. You are therefore that much more authentic and reliable, which is the foundation of building a relationship which is the foundation of building trust, which is the essence of leadership.
So it's the it's the dealing with the emotional intelligence and doing the hard work as a leader that answers the question. What makes you think anybody would want to follow you? What about you? You know, what about you tells me that anybody would want to follow you. And I don't want to hear about your academic preparation and your certifications. And what about?
I want to hear about you as a person.
And that's what's changed.
The skill of leading from behind.
That's right that that's what changed after COVID. We don't. I could care if you went to Harvard or or, you know, City College or I. I really could care. I want to feel the person. And if I feel as though you. You're relatable and authentic, I will follow you anywhere you want me to go because it's not power. It's influence.
And with is the following is is the following is what do I want to say.
Uh.
People choose to follow. They're not. They're not following because their job depends upon it or, you know, whatever the case may be, there's an authenticity to the following. So when you have a leader who understands that and staff who sees it and follows voluntarily.
Experience time.
Organization it expands.
Time for the people that are involved because they're it gives them an opportunity to.
Be themselves and not.
It takes time in your head if nowhere else to try to conform to whatever standard you think you need to conform to, to to make your boss happy, even though your boss doesn't really have any standards of his own or her own.
They're going to preach the company line, you know? Yeah.
You know, but.
Yeah.
Here's here's the thing. If you're looking to connect with the younger generation and over 30% of the of the population today is Gen. Z and most people in the healthcare organizations identify as millennials. You know, if you're going to appeal to these.
It's gonna be they. They see you as authentic and relatable. They they could give a hoot what school you.
Got your masters degree from.
If they're not feeling it, it ain't going to matter. You know what I mean? Like it. It's just not going to land. And you can talk, talk, talk, and they're gonna go. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm going this way, you know.
Yeah.
But when you guys and these folks, they have the ability to see right through this. And then we say well, they don't have a work ethic and they, you know, we want to rationalize this reaction and I'm I'm just trying to get leadership across the country to understand we have to level up. There is some personal work that needs to be done.
And it makes it worse for you as as a leader.
You know, you know how to do your job. I hire you knowing you know how to do your job. What we now have to hire for is can.
Character humanity. You know, those are the things I don't. You know, if you great, you're the world's greatest. Whatever. If you're not an authentic human person who has authenticity and and a sense of humanness and character, then I can't see a place for you within my organization.
And we have to go there if we're going to go forward.
Oh, I couldn't agree.
More so how people work with you. If they are interested in hiring you, either like individuals or organizations.
Well, it's easier to reach me on LinkedIn if you go to Phyllis Quinlan on LinkedIn and then, you know, ask, you know, follow me or connect with me. But message me right away. I I'm very responsive cause I'm on LinkedIn every day.
Way is really to reach out to me on my website which is.
MFW consultants Michael Frank, William MFW consultants.com or e-mail me at mfwconsultants@gmail.com and I will return that around within 48 hours.
That's awesome. So what's the one thing that you hope the audience takes away from our conversation today?
I I I want them to be hopeful. I hope that they are hopeful. The one thing is to lean into the fact that you were stronger than you ever thought you could be. Which means if you look behind you and see all that you have navigated through, you should not have a question about what the future holds in your ability to navigate through that too.
That's awesome. Thank you so much for joining me.
Phyllis, I had such a good time. Jill, thank you.