Joyful Connections: Parenting Through Play Starts with Toddlers

Audio file

Jill Lerman Podcast.m4a

Transcript

Hi and welcome to the You World Order Showcase podcast. Today we have with us, Jill Lehrman. Jill is a play and parenting coach, early childhood educator, play expert and the mom she empowers overwhelmed parents and caretakers to connect and engage with their little ones through simple developmental play prompts.

And makes parenting feel more joyful and manageable, empowering you to be the parent you want to be. Welcome to the show, Jill. It is really lovely to have you join us.

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

So I teased you.

With with something about our name.

Because we're both girls.

Yes, yes.

I really just wanted to ask you, did you meet a lot of Jills while you?

Were growing up.

So it's interesting, not so many and and I will also say that when I did, they were jillians and I'm not. I'm just Jill. So yeah. So I feel like even when I did, they weren't like exactly the same. But no, not as many as one.

I've just chilled.

As one might think.

What about you?

I never met another Jill until I was.

In my 40s.

Ohh wow.

I mean at all. I never knew another person named Jill or Jillian. I mean, it was just like I felt like, you know, this is so weird. I have this weird name.

I know that doesn't seem like it would be like so uncommon, right? But yeah, I didn't really need very many either, and I hadn't really thought about it before till you said it.

Yeah. So, there you go. Weirdness in life. So did you name your children with, like, multiple syllable names, or did you go with the simple names too?

Yeah, yeah.

Funny enough, so right now I have I have one child and I went with the single syllable, which I didn't. Also didn't think about until this moment, but her name is Ray.

Yeah. OK. So it's a nice short, easy to spell name.

Yeah, yeah.

I have five children and the first one I gave five names to and she hates me to.

This day for that.

And she's a girl. And I named her Christopher.

See, I kind of love that. I love that. I love that. Yeah, I love that my daughter, even. We went with Ray, which is, you know, pretty gender neutral. But I all the names that I was the most.

It's the 80s.

Attracted to could kind of could go either way and I don't know. I I always like that. So I'm into that.

Yeah, I I thought it was kind of cool. And then she was older when I started naming well, she she and her brother are older and then the other three are younger. So the other three are like Bob, Jack and Sarah.

Ah.

But those are.

Bob and Jack, they're just nicknames. And when Sarah came along, they're like, no, you're going to name her.

Her name and that's going to be.

It.

So I named her after all the old ladies in the Bible who had two children.

I love that perfect.

Two of them.

Oh.

How did you get into this becoming a parenting?

Ah.

Which?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I I was a teacher in early childhood educator. I taught in preschools in and around the Manhattan area and and loved it. I taught I worked with mainly toddlers, which everyone thought I was crazy. But I I loved the toddler stage and.

And also in the parenting centers of those schools. So I did some classes that were just children and then some classes that were parents or caretakers with their children. That was kind of like a feeder into the school.

Oh.

So it was a. It was a crazy time and we didn't really know what the fate of the world would hold. And I finished out that school year on zoom, like so many of the UM, my fellow teachers and.

And in that time, I also was running my own business that was teaching in person play classes. So, you know, showing people taking this classroom experience and showing people how they could facilitate experiences like that in their homes. And then when the pandemic happened, I realized, like, gosh, there's really an opportunity here for me to take this mobile.

Business that I was running or these experiences of the classroom and help people bring that into their home, especially now when people with young children were stuck at home, had maybe never spent so much time at home.

In their lives and and I started to focus on that using social media and sharing simple play ideas that people could try using things they had around the house, how they could use toys that they already had in lots of different ways so that they weren't feeling inundated with stuff and.

And it just kind of took off from there. And then when I had my dog.

Water. I just realized how much support even doing what I did. You know that people need because getting through the day just feels really hard and I wanted to take my experience working with so many families. And then also then my experience now in motherhood to facilitate.

That journey for for others, and that was kind of how I made the pivot into the coaching space from the classroom space.

I love that a lot and it it it's. I think we've we've evolved as a society where we've gotten away from people having children for the longest time it was just like we'll just send them to daycare and and to me it's like what's the point of having kids if you're just going to Farm farm out?

Yes.

The raising them somewhere else.

And that that was kind of sad. A lot of kids in the 80s went through that, my own included and I I.

Feel terrible about it, but there's not nothing you can do about it at this point, but there are because I think because of that, people like you who have come along and said, hey, there's a better way you can interact with your kids and you can. This is this is how you would raise them because.

There were a whole group of us that had no clue. You know, we were raised in smaller families and, you know, we were close to our siblings in age, so we didn't have babies coming up beneath us.

That.

Was kind of the beauty of the larger families.

The one at the top knew how to take care of babies, and the one at the bottom was starting to take care of the one at the tops. Kids as they're coming up. So there there was constantly that training of how to take care of the next generation because it was just it was fluid. But we don't live in communities like that.

Anymore. Families are very separated and they're small. You know, you might have a couple kids at the most.

If you're having kids.

Yeah.

To to run across families that were really large.

I live in. I live in Idaho now.

But I moved to Utah.

Oh wow.

And I used to think I had a lot of kids.

But I lived in California and Colorado and in California and Colorado. Five kids is a lot. But in in Utah and Idaho, it's like, you know, you're the normal person.

Yeah.

You're like, yeah, I was going to say it's about average.

It's about average, but.

Yeah, it just having having a resource like what you offer is amazing. So how do people work with you? Is it like one-on-one in zoom and?

Yeah. So I have a couple of different ways. So one of those ways is in private coaching, UM and that's really for people who want just someone there, you know, with them holding their hand as they're kind of walking through the trenches.

It's a parenting. It's a much more in depth support, so I do offer a three month private coaching package for people that are looking for that. I also offer a membership which I actually just launched this week which I'm very excited about and that was, you know, for someone who maybe doesn't.

Want as much individualized support, but is looking for.

Or regular play prompts and ideas of you know what? What do I do with my child all day? I want to create something engaging, but maybe they're not creative in that way or I I don't know how to make the most of what I have and I don't want to just always have stuff. So it's monthly play, play prompts and ideas for that are open-ended.

Have to really work across multiple ages and stages.

Plus a monthly class on a developmental topic or play fundamental. So you're really getting that deep understanding of what's happening developmentally and how you can support it. Plus Q&A with me. So it's just, you know, another way to have those resources in a very affordable way.

So I work with people like that in that way as well. And then I also do play consults.

So this is for someone who's strictly looking for play support. Maybe just some ideas based on what their child is interested in the moment. Hey, how do I use my blocks in a way that's more than just the traditional stacking? Because my child's really.

Into.

That so that's another way that I work with people where they give me, I give them a questionnaire.

They give me some ideas about what their child's, into what skills they're working on, or they're looking to work on, and then I send them a play plan with a bunch of ideas of how to support it.

That's really fascinating. So what age would you say that people should reach out to you? What age should their kids be?

Yeah. So it's a great question. Honestly, any at any time. And I would say I work with people who are pregnant and they're preparing. I work with people that have newborns through, I'd say the sweet spot is really through like 6-7 is the sweet.

Thought. But it's never too late. And that's the beauty of it. When it comes to building play skills, you can start from birth if you've never really worked on that, but want to facilitate that, particularly with independent play and your child. Really, you know, self starting and leading.

UM, you know that's a skill that you can build at any point as well. So you know, I would say probably the best majority of people I work with have children 4 and under. But I do work with clients who have children till about like 6-7.

Years old as well.

And that those are such formative years, I know we say.

That but it I think that people.

Yes.

When you're just when you.

When you bring that baby home, it suddenly is like, oh, oh, they're a little human being. And it's that even before they're born.

Yes.

It's like conception on it's all of the pieces are so important to the development of who they're going to be as a human being as an adult. And it's you're just looking at this thing that doesn't.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And and they're showing you who they are from. I mean, gosh, when I'm, it's like a Side Story. But it I feel like it's appropriate. So my daughter, I found out at 36 weeks was breach and you know, I was doing all these, all the exercises laying down on the ironing board doing all these things like trying to get her to turn.

All the things that were recommended.

Did and she. She didn't. And I ended up, you know, having a scheduled C-section, but all this to say when I met her, I was like, well, there was no way she was turning. She is so headstrong. She's independent. She knows who she is, when she's comfortable and has found her way with something. She does not want to be interrupted.

And when I when I got to know her, and as I continue to get to know her, I'm like, gosh, that was there from in the womb. Like had I known it at the time, I would have been like, Oh yeah, there's no way this child's turning, like, save yourself the grief laying upside down and trying to get her to move, you know?

And I applaud your.

Your ability to have peace with the situation so many times, we want to just force our kids to do things the way we want them to.

Do.

To do it, including being born like no, I'm going to have this child naturally, and to me, I am a trained doula.

To me, if you get that kid out and it's breathing, that was a natural child. It did it, girl, go for it. And if you can breastfeed, great if you can't.

Alright.

That was a natural 100%, yes, so true so true.

Your job is to make sure they get nutrition.

Yes, that's right.

However, that happens. Yeah, I have daughters that they.

They pumped.

They couldn't be bothered with sitting there and feeding the baby, and they wanted to have, you know, other people be able to to feed the baby so.

And they they breastfed him, but it was in a bottle.

Yeah, yeah.

And that works for them. It's like.

Yeah.

You know, whatever.

And that's that's what it's all about, right? Like finding what works for you. And I think that like to your point, so much of my approach in the way I work with families and certainly in the way that I try to parent myself is, you know, is to follow the child's lead. And you know that they're giving us information, like we said, like.

From the womb, about who they are.

And you know, I feel like when we see a child for who they are and we respect them and their individual journey and we give them the space and the confidence to grow into the person that they are meant to be, not who we think they should be, but who they are meant to be. That's when I'm mad. That's when amazing things.

Happened. That's some, you know, and I think that's that's what parenting is really all.

About and often you know as it pertains to, like the work that I do and specifically in play, but really just in parenting period. Children are so much more likely when it comes to their play to engage for longer periods of time when it's something that follows their interests. And sometimes we have these ideas well meaning.

Of course. But like about what play is supposed to look like, what they're supposed to be doing, and when they're not doing that, we don't think they're like doing it right or that we're failing in some way and you know, gosh, especially with young kids with toddlers.

Play isn't always, you know, they sit quietly and they're stalking and building a, you know, a block tower or they're sitting quietly and coloring. No. Sometimes it's dumping bins out, just dumping them, knocking every book off the bookshelf. I would venture to say that's play for a a toddler, you know, walking around, talking to one.

Self.

That can be considered play and I think that when we open our minds to really to seeing our child wherever they are in that given moment and supporting that, that's when the magic really happens in the parenting.

And not feeling the need to compare your child to anybody else's journey because your child is unique. It's not going to be like it's siblings. Every one of them is different. Everyone is here for a different purpose.

12.

Yeah.

This and the sooner that you can clue into that and just relax with it the better. And I'm I'm all about the home schooling movement and not doing school at home but letting your kids.

Yeah.

Having at this point in my life, I've launched 5 human beings out into the world. They are all amazing people contributing to making the world a better place, and they're doing well.

They're doing well.

Financially, if you want to like measure it.

If you use that as a measuring tool.

I didn't the last three. I pretty much let them direct their education. You can learn everything you need to know in two years.

I dumped them into an alternative school. They made A's and they got out at 16, so the head start on the rest of their life. But they got that silly little piece of paper and I got affirmed that, hey, I I didn't do too bad a job.

Letting them be who they were, not trying to force them to go to school and be told they were wrong and they were. They're doing this. They didn't measure up to some.

Nebulous standard and they didn't repeat back the things that they were supposed to repeat back because somebody said this is what you're supposed to. This is what the answer is supposed to be. The answer can be whatever you want it to be.

Yes.

That's right. And the people, you know, it's such an interesting thing because I think when it comes to children, you know, that we often, you know, when they, like, quote, get out of line or they're not, you know, fitting into the box that we, we kind of condemn this. We see it as problematic. We see them as challenging. We see them as all, you know, all these different things.

But all of like the amazing people that are changing the world, right, the the, you know, the people that have the foresight to, to do something differently, whether that is in career or you know, whatever, whatever it might be, these are, these are people that are stepping outside of, you know, they're crossing the line. They're stepping outside.

The box they're looking at things in a way that someone else is in, and it's just so interesting to me that when we look at our children, we see those things as negative. But then that's what those are the qualities we wanna see as adults.

And I think that like when I think about all the children I've worked with as a classroom teacher, I say to my own daughter and now the families I support, you know, it's like when we, when we look at children and we are saying we want those things, but then we don't, we don't want them to push back. You know, we don't want to, we don't want to hear, you know, that they're not listening.

You know what it's like. Well, you you can't really have both. You have to accept.

But you know, I mean, gosh, my daughter gives it to me in terms of like she she will push back and she's testing boundaries and all these things. And even though it's difficult in the moment, and I will not gonna lie like and act like it isn't, it is. I have to remind myself like I want her to go out in the world and do that. And if I wanted to do that out in the world.

Then I have to be OK with it being safe for her to respectfully do that with me.

And I think that that's so true, you know, with our kids, whether it's about their learning styles, their behavior, if that's what we want to see in the future, we have to think about how we foster that from the beginning, because if we're constantly trying to put everybody in the same box, it's going to be that much harder than when they get older to then want to break free.

That they've been taught over a very long period of time, especially from the most trusted people in their life, that they're supposed to make themselves smaller, right? So if that isn't what we want, and I think most parents don't, we do have to think about what that then means.

It.

His name escapes me. Peterson Gordon. Jordan Peterson. He has the 10 rules for parenting. Or maybe it's maybe. It's not about parenting, but there's one rule that he had in there. It was just like this is golden. I wish I could give this to everybody, and I'd tell it to all my children. In fact, I gave.

Mm-hmm.

All my children, this book.

For this one rule and the one rule was.

It was around not letting your children do things that irritated you.

And that was.

The only thing you had to worry about with your kids? Just teach them, in essence, teach them what your boundaries are.

And hold your boundaries. Teach them that you know this. These are the things that I will not tolerate will be repercussions if you cross these boundaries.

But you know what they are. And you know what the consequence is going to be for those boundaries. But I, in turn, will respect your boundaries. And that's that is really crucial. That you teach children that boundaries are to be respected. And it goes both ways.

Yes, that's right.

I'm not going to make you.

Do something.

That you just.

Mentally are not equipped to do and you don't like it. It's not. It's not fair to them and what it teaches them is that you know, boundaries are conditional.

Right.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

That's right. No, it's. So what you're saying is so huge and I think about this even in terms of like.

That is.

Gosh, I mean, I think about it in terms of like physical affection and it like, if a child does not want to be hugged, you know, think about if it was another an adult, if an adult didn't want to.

Be touched, we would.

Respect that boundary, but with children, think about how often the expectation is just like go hug, go hug so and so go hug your aunt, go hug your friend.

And it's like, well, what, maybe they don't want to and like, shouldn't. Shouldn't we be then instead, you know, teaching our children to politely.

Decline that when they don't feel comfortable and doesn't that then translate down the line to this doesn't feel right in my body and I'm going to say so and people should respect that when I say so as opposed to the expectation of they want that. So I should be doing that. So then how does that translate then down the line, right. I mean in terms of.

Body autonomy and what feels right to me or doesn't, and respecting my body and respecting others. And I think about that all the time. I think about it in terms of like fullness and me.

Rules, right? Like where there's such to eat things. It's right exactly where I'm like. Oh, gosh, like you know? Of course. Yes. On the one hand, it's our responsibility as parents, we want to make sure our children are getting nutrition. And, you know, we are overseeing their health and their well-being. But then I think to myself, like, there are times that I'm just not in the mood to eat.

Or wanting.

Something you know? Why should it be different? Or you know, sometimes I just something just doesn't agree with me. I don't like the consistency of that. So why is that OK for me as an adult, but a child has to eat it because I put it on the.

Actually, right. So I think about that all the time and like it doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean I think the other side of this is it doesn't mean that our children just, you know, run the show and there's no rules and there's no boundaries. But I think that taking their feelings into account, right, the same way we would hope that our feelings would be taken into account.

That is the recipe for, you know, creating a human being that will then be able to grow into an adult to do the same thing and.

I think about it all the time and so and I catch myself, you know, cause I.

Think it's like.

We fall into just that. That's the pattern and you know, I have to kind of remind myself of that. The same thing with like jackets. Sometimes my daughter will not put on a coat. And I'm like, well, I could, like, hold her down and force or we can.

See, you know? Alright. You know your body. Let's see how your body feels. I'm gonna bring.

The code I think it's pretty cold out there, but you see you see how you feel when you get outside and what happens 9 out of 10 times. She then asks for her coat if she's cold and she puts it on. But the difference between you know that she's trusting what she feels inside and then that's coming from her versus it being forced from me. That's a big distinction, you know.

It's allowing her to make some decisions early on it it helps people figure out.

So.

Decision making.

Yes.

And and it's it's a skill that a lot of kids don't learn until much later because they're never given the opportunity to make a choice. And simple choice is like, you know, which pair of socks would you like to wear today? It doesn't matter what the answer is. They're making a decision.

Yes.

That's right.

That's right.

Yes.

That's right.

And being able to make decisions is a huge adulting skill. Absolutely.

So many people reach that point and they're just like, well, I don't know, what do you?

I do.

And they don't know how to trust that inner voice. And to your point, I love that example you gave, because when I zoom out from that, I'm saying so we're making it very clear we're going to put on socks. You can choose. Do you want the blue socks or the red socks? And I think this is again a place that sometimes this idea of, you know, parenting.

From a respectful place, gets misunderstood because it gets interpreted as that the child says no sex and they run off and they never don't have to punch shoes or socks, and they do what they want to do, and it's like, no, no, there's a clear line we are putting on socks and shoes cause we're going outside. You can choose which socks you wear. Do you want these or these?

And you know, I think finding the places to implement choice throughout the day just makes such a huge difference with power struggles in other places because they're having an opportunity to have a say in their life, right. And, you know, as human beings, we all crave that. We crave that from the time we're young and the same way that we crave that as adults.

And you know, I think finding the places for that is so key. We're going to have a snack. Do you want the pretzels?

Or do you want the apple chips right? Snack time is now, but you can choose which snack. That's just another example, because maybe they're.

Not hungry but.

And if they're not hungry, fine. When you get hungry, these are your choices. You think?

This is these are your.

Which do you think you want me.

To pack. That's right.

For later it it lets them be in control of their life in in smaller areas, and then as they grow.

That's right.

They'll be able to to make bigger choices like do I want to go to this party where I know there's going to be drinking, or do I want to say Nah, I think not and they'll.

Yes.

Yes.

Though already know how to make decisions. That's right, they'll feel like. What does it feel, right?

For me, and they all feel like they have to hide things from you because you've already taught them. You know, this is a decision making process. I know that when you get to this stage, you're going to be faced with some other choices.

That.

May impact your life in in ways that you don't want it to impact your life.

That you've already made these littler choices along the way, and that the the the choices that you're making and are, you know, getting bigger, like which kinds of classes do you want to?

Yes.

Study.

Yes, yes.

What kinds of books do you want to?

Read, yeah.

You know you're going to read a book, but you can pick which.

Kind and see you're starting to develop bigger and and and more complete pictures for them about how things look on the other side of these decisions that they make.

That's right.

Yes, absolutely.

So and it all starts with play.

It does. It does. I feel like everything does. I mean, that was one of the things that got me into this was I just, I saw again and again that play was the way that children learn best. And it was how they were making sense of the world around them. And you know how they were.

You know, processing things, processing feelings, and I just watched again and again and again as a teacher, just how things came alive at the hands of of the children. And now I feel really lucky that I get to help people facilitate that.

And see that magic in their home. You know, as they kind of support their their own families play journeys.

I love that so much. So you do offer people a guide to independent play at any age, and this is free and it's on your website. You want to talk about that just a little bit.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think you know, independent play is a huge part of the work I do. It's also as a mom who freelances. But it's also the primary taker, caretaker. That's how I how I work. It's how I, you know, can make my business happen while also raising my daughter.

Her and I feel like it is one of the greatest tools that any parent can have in their toolbox. I think often people will hear independent play and they feel like I don't know. Gosh, am I neglecting my child or you know what is that like? You know, what does that even look like? My child's really young and.

What we don't realize is that even with the best intentions as adults, when we get involved in our child's play, we change it. We have different skills than they do. We have a different realm of knowledge.

And we also come in with this idea of we know how something is. Maybe, you know, supposed to be played with, whereas our children see unlimited possibilities even with everyday objects, they see ways for things to come together that that we don't as adults. And so when we let them lead the way in their play, this is really where the magic happens, where the problem solving.

Happens. The creativity happens. Umm, so this is actually something we really want to encourage and that actually majorly supports them.

In their development of all the skills to come, so in this free guide I gave some of my tried and true tips of how you can see and facilitate more independent play at home. You know, some things are around even where play happens in your home, you know often we think that if our child is going to play on their own that it means they're off.

In the other room, doing their own thing while we're doing ours, not necessarily. So right and kind of getting creative with what that looks like having an understanding of what a developmentally appropriate amount of time is for a child to play at each age and stage.

And the kinds of things that we can do to support them and like most of the things in my work, I really like this to be low lift but big impact because I know as parents who are overwhelmed, right, we're we're busy, we're burnt out or kind of bordering on burnt out a lot of the time and I don't want play or supporting.

Play to feel like another thing that then falls on us. So these are things that are like under 2 minutes that you can do that will have a huge impact overall in your child's ability to engage independently.

And from what you're saying, it seems like they're kind of prompts to help your child get started. And and it's really just about getting them started because.

They'll go for it like.

That's right. That's right. And it's so true, Jill. And, you know, I think so. I like to use. I like to always like related to experiences that we can understand as adults. So I think about like when I'm really hungry, like I'm really hungry.

And I go into a pantry full of food options, many of which I like to eat, but I'm at that level of hungry. I can't even like, think about what I want at that point, right. And I think our children, with their play, it's the same thing. They want to play, they they want to, you know, get started. But sometimes it's just overwhelming.

It that could be the amount of stuff you have, it could be the way it's set up. It could just be even if you're perfectly organized, that it's just an overwhelming process.

So sometimes it's just about the little something to kick started and that's a big part of the work I do is in helping families, sometimes giving ideas for what those prompts could be, that many children would enjoy. And sometimes it's about how to help you become that active observer. So then you know what your child's.

Play prompt would be or. What will get them started because we are all unique individuals and the same. Same you know is true for our children and you know you can kind of figure out what your child's play superpower is or what's going to work for them. But it's about, you know, knowing how to find.

Doing that, and yeah, I think, you know, our children want to play, but sometimes we assume that they should be able to just go and some children can. And many, I would say the vast majority need some support. And that support could be as simple as we put something out that they use all the time. But in a place that they're not used to seeing it or in combination with something else that's like.

What's that, right, huh. My animals are next to my blocks. That's different, right? Or, hey, my blocks are over there. Up on the table. I'm pointing my daughters child size table. They're up on the table rather than on the.

Sure. That's something. It's just enough to like spark it and get it going and then they will take it from there. That's what I see as our role as the adults in play. It's about we facilitate the environment, we can, you know, do all these things to kind of get it started and then the play itself, that's their work, that's their department.

That's where we can then take that step back and follow their lead. But they often do need that little something just to get it going.

It reminds me of we have this coffee table that my son, one of my sons has and his son, who's about 3 1/2 now. When he was maybe 18 months.

We we go over there all the time.

And and babysit so.

Which is just really code for. They let us play.

With their kids.

So there's a there's a hole and not hole in this coffee table, and it's, you know, it's indestructible. So. And he had these little things that like necklaces. And he discovered how much fun it is to push things through this hole. And it comes out the bottom.

Yeah, yeah.

They needed to.

Find it and find it, and this game still goes on to this day, I mean.

Yes.

18 months later.

Oh, I'm sure, yeah.

Years later, he he still loves to stick things in there. It's different things now, but.

It's it's like.

It's magic, an everyday thing that exists in their environment that is endless fun.

Yes, yes and it is. And and about, you know, figuring out like how does this thing work and as you're saying this to me, because this is just like how my brain works. Now I'm thinking of all these other activities.

But it's about exploring.

Or prompts that you could do that are like that that are like a posting activity, something or what fits right. Yeah, having things have different sizes with different containers, what fits through what opening, what goes in here, what can come out one side.

The other.

Like now my head is going of ohh. I know what that child would want to do, like a good extension of that and I think.

That's totally an explorer of good.

Right. Like that's kind of the thing. Yeah. And I think that's where that, you know, observation comes in where you pick up on these things. And once you become really attuned to it, you're like, oh, I know, you know, now knowing this about them, I know this other thing that they would like. And I think sometimes what I love about the example you're giving is.

You know, often we'll look at something like this and we'll come back with like ohh, they like cars or they like their animals. And that's completely a valid answer. But when we like really look in depth, that's when we start to notice things like the detail you're describing and there's play opportunity in these things that are unconventional, right, that aren't necessarily toys or traditional materials.

But the exploration is really what it's about. My daughter, when she was an infant.

Used to be obsessed with, she must have been. Gosh, like I don't know. Three months old. And she was obsessed with the drawstrings on sweatshirts. Her eyes would just get so huge and she would bat at it. And when she was working on reaching and grasping, she would want.

To.

Pull and and so just because of how my head works, I was like I want to find a way to translate that into a play experience, which.

For us, was I tied strands of ribbon from her play gym and I placed her under it. And you could like her face just lit up. And this a couple of months old. And what I saw in that moment was like she feels seen.

You know, she feels like you. You saw this thing that I love and you, you made this experience just for me. And that for me is what these play prompts are about. Yeah. For a child to feel connection, it doesn't only have to be us playing with them in these traditional ways that we're used to seeing, that's one way. But there's so many other ways to connect.

And one of the ways can be that you set out something.

Helpful that you know they would love based on what you're noticing about them and their interests. And that is connection and then letting them and trusting them to lead the way on how to explore that and that I feel like is a huge part of what I'm trying to support families and seeing.

I love that. I love that so much. I.

I'm having so much fun with these three little grandsons that I have that are local to me and they're all different, and they're all at different stages, but it just it just in the conversation I I'm remembering different things that I've had the opportunity to interact with them and.

Yeah.

It just.

I know that they love me and they they want to be around me because I I do see them and I I do like I bought him bells Jingle Bells because he loved norways all kinds of noises and and he still will bring me the Jingle.

Yes.

Bells it's like.

I know you gave.

Ohh warms my heart.

Yeah, but anybody can do that whether you're a grandparent or your parent. It it just it's like just noticing them and it's really.

Yes.

That's right.

Yes.

That's really the key. It's just seeing them for who they are and letting them be.

It is. It is exactly, exactly and honoring that and, you know, and letting them know that you see that, you know, it's so huge. I even like sometimes. I mean, I don't like to interrupt a child's process, but I love when, like a child's working on.

I don't know. Maybe they're coloring something or painting something and you just watch. And then when it's when they're done, right, because we want.

To interrupt their.

Work, but when they're done, you know, just saying I I'm noticing.

And then next, those are like two of my favorite words I noticed where I'm noticing right? It's not making an assumption about what they drew. Ohh you made a cat. No, right, it's. I'm noticing. Wow. You you use so many different colors. Can you tell me about that? Where they built a tower? I'm noticing that this part over here is going out really wide and then this part gets a little smaller.

Yes.

Can you tell me about that?

It's about like honoring those details, not deciding what we think they were trying to do. Right. Because I think sometimes we think that we're doing the I'm noticing when we do that, but rather not making any assumption and letting them lead the way, but letting them know, hey, I saw that you did this and I think that's really cool. I mean, think about like, I'm just thinking even now like.

As an adult, when someone says something like that to me like I noticed you did X like wow. Like, I'm like, thank you. You know, it makes you, it makes you get all like the little tingles in your heart. Like, wow, you see me. And yes, I did do that. And thank you for seeing.

That and our children are no different. So I've as you're saying this with the Jingle Bells. I'm like, you know, he's communicating in his way. You got me this thing that I really love. And you knew I would love it. And I'm showing you. I remember that you gave it to me. I mean, how amazing is.

That for such a young child?

Yeah.

And and it's not, it's not like it's special, just it's the only thing. It's only for me. Everybody can do this. I just. Just.

Yes.

But it's just taking a moment and noticing and asking questions, getting them to communicate with you.

That's right.

That's right.

That's right.

And children can communicate very early whether they have words or not.

Oh yes.

Yes.

That 100% and I think that like we were saying earlier, they are showing us who they.

Are.

Right from the start and just, you know, willing us to see them and you know, to hear them and they communicate so much from long before they have the words to tell us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This has been an amazing conversation. I have really enjoyed it, Jill.

I know I did too.

So what's the one? The only the one that?

I know we covered so much.

Audience takes away from the conversation exactly.

Gosh, I think you know the biggest thing would be.

That it doesn't have to be complicated to be meaningful.

And I think that that goes certainly in terms of play and and and materials we use in play. So it applies there. But I think it just applies in parenting period. You know we see we feel so much pressure and we put so much pressure on ourselves as parents that we constantly have to be doing and getting and.

You know, we're always seeing on social media what other people are doing and it's so easy to feel like you're not doing enough.

Of or to feel guilty. And you know, I think that when people realize that it's not about reinventing the wheel and that you're your child just wants that connection from you and that that can come in many forms and we don't have to make it harder on ourselves, just leaning into simplicity.

And presence I feel like is key.

I agree 100%. Thank you so much for joining me.

Today, thank you for having me.